<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Praveen,</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for the prompt reply.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 12:22 PM Praveen Arimbrathodiyil <<a href="mailto:praveen@onenetbeyond.org">praveen@onenetbeyond.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On 14/04/23 9:37 am, Yogesh Powar wrote:<br>
> Hi Praveen,<br>
> <br>
> Great news about multi-state cooperative.<br>
> <br>
> I have a couple of questions. I could have sent you a direct message, <br>
> but similar questions might be relevant to others on the list.<br>
> <br>
> Is money (a share price of 1000) the only criterion to become a member?<br>
<br>
Every member has to abide by <a href="https://prav.app/coc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://prav.app/coc</a> and we are drafting <br>
the byelaws for the coop currently, they will have to follow the byelaws <br>
as well. Once we register, the new members will have to be approved by <br>
the elected board.<br></blockquote><div>Ok.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
> Have you explored Matrix (such as <a href="http://element.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">element.io</a> <<a href="http://element.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://element.io</a>> over <br>
> XMPP) at all?<br>
<br>
Yes.<br>
<br>
Philosophically both matrix and XMPP are equivalent due to federation <br>
and interoperability. Due to some design choices, we prefer xmpp over <br>
matrix (semi-anonymous public groups as we want to use phone number as <br>
id, lighter groups due to groups on single servers though that loses <br>
some redundancy, etc).<br>
<br>
See more such questions at <a href="https://prav.app/faq/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://prav.app/faq/</a><br>
<br>
Matrix costs more in terms of system resources and effort to manage (we <br>
have experience of running <a href="http://poddery.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">poddery.com</a> and <a href="http://diasp.in" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">diasp.in</a> which has both <br>
matrix and xmpp). These extra costs do offer some benefits like <br>
redundancy of messages, but we feel that may not be required for a <br>
general messaging system. Though organizations that can afford to pay <br>
more may still find Matrix better.<br>
<br>
Messages are stored on all participating servers in matrix, and they are <br>
stored forever by default, in contrast, xmpp groups are hosted on a <br>
single server and by default messages are deleted after some time (this <br>
can be configured by the admin). This also means matrix servers have to <br>
continuously merge the state and history across all participating <br>
servers (this can be thought of like a git repo being forked and merged <br>
all the time) and this takes a lot of cpu and ram.<br>
<br>
Matrix do have better client apps compared to xmpp right now, but we <br>
feel this can be improved over time and the rough edges to xmpp clients <br>
can be fixed, especially since there is a lot of people coming back to <br>
xmpp. We also hope to invest in fixing some of these missing features in <br>
xmpp.<br></blockquote><div>Good to know.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks</div><div>Yogesh</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
> Thanks<br>
> Yogesh<br>
> <br>
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 6:39 PM Pirate Praveen via plug-mail <br>
> <<a href="mailto:plug-mail@plug.org.in" target="_blank">plug-mail@plug.org.in</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:plug-mail@plug.org.in" target="_blank">plug-mail@plug.org.in</a>>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Hi,<br>
> <br>
> We specifically need your help to register a multi state cooperative<br>
> society, which needs 50 members each from two states and we have 50+<br>
> from Kerala and 26 from Maharashtra. If some of you joins and helps<br>
> find some more members we can register this soon.<br>
> Read more below<br>
> Unpopular policies<br>
> In January 2021, popular messaging app WhatsApp changed their privacy<br>
> policy to combine all the data it gets with Facebook, giving users only<br>
> two choices: accept the new privacy policy, or leave WhatsApp<br>
> altogether.<br>
> <br>
> In a world where using WhatsApp has become a norm, that wasn’t really<br>
> a choice.<br>
> <br>
> There were many users who did not like this new privacy policy. They<br>
> tried to leave WhatsApp for other messaging apps, like Telegram and<br>
> Signal. A sizable amount of users disagreed with the push by WhatsApp,<br>
> but leaving a popular app like WhatsApp comes with its own<br>
> costs—losing touch with contacts on WhatsApp. That meant, unless they<br>
> were willing to be cut out from a lot of their contacts, people had to<br>
> still leave one foot in the WhatsApp door.<br>
> <br>
> How different the situation is with phone numbers! If you had similar<br>
> disagreements with a phone company A, you could have easily switch to<br>
> any other phone company B and still be able to talk to other contacts<br>
> by calls and SMS. Your contacts need not switch to company B to<br>
> communicate with you. (In fact, the reason phone companies don’t make<br>
> decisions like this is because they know customers will immediately<br>
> leave them for a better provider. The ability for users to leave keeps<br>
> phone companies under control).<br>
> <br>
> A solution: XMPP<br>
> Imagine if all messaging apps were like phone and email, where users of<br>
> any app can contact with users of other apps. In the above example,<br>
> people would have a real choice to leave WhatsApp and just use any<br>
> other service.<br>
> <br>
> This is exactly what we need.<br>
> <br>
> XMPP is a protocol that lets this happen. For the uninitiated, you can<br>
> think of XMPP as a superpowered SMS, which works over the Internet and<br>
> allows modern features like calls and image-sharing. It’s not a<br>
> single company like WhatsApp but a standard that different companies<br>
> can provide for.<br>
> <br>
> Messaging apps and services that that use XMPP can talk to each other.<br>
> Examples of such apps are: Blabber, Snikket, Siskin, and more (think of<br>
> these like Google SMS, Samsung SMS, Silence, and any other SMS app).<br>
> Examples of XMPP service providers include <a href="http://disroot.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">disroot.org</a><br>
> <<a href="http://disroot.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://disroot.org</a>>, <a href="http://poddery.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">poddery.com</a> <<a href="http://poddery.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://poddery.com</a>>,<br>
> <a href="http://monocles.de" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">monocles.de</a> <<a href="http://monocles.de" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://monocles.de</a>>, and a whole bunch more (think of<br>
> these as different<br>
> service providers, like BSNL, Vi, or Airtel).<br>
> <br>
> To drive home the point: any user registered on any XMPP service can<br>
> talk to other users of any other XMPP service. (<a href="http://disroot.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">disroot.org</a><br>
> <<a href="http://disroot.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://disroot.org</a>> users and<br>
> <a href="http://poddery.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">poddery.com</a> <<a href="http://poddery.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://poddery.com</a>> users can send each other messages,<br>
> just like BSNL users<br>
> can exchange SMSes and calls with people on Airtel). This gives users<br>
> choice of service providers: a single company does not control<br>
> everything, and we won’t be forced to accept arbitrary terms by<br>
> services like WhatsApp to be in touch with others.<br>
> <br>
> Ease of adoption<br>
> Unfortunately, the current onboarding process on most XMPP services is<br>
> not user friendly at all compared to WhatsApp. This issue, combined<br>
> with the lack of awareness about XMPP services among common people, has<br>
> made mass adoption difficult.<br>
> <br>
> Things don’t have to be this way, and Quicksy is a leading example of<br>
> this. Like WhatsApp, Quicksy allows users to register in a few taps by<br>
> entering their phone number and receiving an OTP. But because it’s an<br>
> XMPP service, Quicksy users can talk to users on other XMPP services.<br>
> <br>
> We are developing the Prav app to complement Quicksy by providing a<br>
> compatible app (Prav users can talk with Quicksy users) and offering<br>
> more choice to users. People can easily sign up for Prav in the same<br>
> way they do for Quicksy, but now they have more than one alternative to<br>
> choose from. Before, the choice only existed for people willing to<br>
> figure out the complex setup process on other XMPP providers; with Prav<br>
> they now have another easy-to-set-up alternative.<br>
> <br>
> Respects users’ freedom<br>
> Our app is ‘free software’, which means users get freedom to run,<br>
> study, modify, share and share the modified versions. When we say<br>
> ‘free’, we mean ‘freedom’ and not ‘free-of-cost’. To avoid<br>
> ambiguity of the word ‘free’, we also call it swatantra software.<br>
> Examples of free software are VLC Media Player, Firefox, Debian,<br>
> Quicksy, Prav etc. You can learn more about Free Software and why it is<br>
> important here 1.<br>
> <br>
> This means that the original source code behind a swatantra app is<br>
> freely available for anyone to inspect; people can conduct independent<br>
> security audits instead of having to trust a company’s word about<br>
> what data they are or are not collecting. Such an auditing can also<br>
> verify whether the app sends messages in end-to-end encrypted form or<br>
> not.<br>
> <br>
> In contrast, WhatsApp does not provide source code for their app and we<br>
> can never verify independently whether the app encrypts messages as<br>
> they claim.<br>
> <br>
> Running as a cooperative<br>
> Choice aside, Quicksy is run by a single person, which has its own<br>
> drawbacks—most significantly, having a single point of failure if<br>
> something goes wrong. We want to offer Prav as a cooperative, adding<br>
> more resilience by managing the service as a group, having a democratic<br>
> decision making structure.<br>
> <br>
> In India, cooperative societies can be registered under state<br>
> cooperative laws or under central laws. Only people from the same state<br>
> can become members if we register under any state cooperative laws. So,<br>
> we prefer registering as a Multi State Cooperative Society to allow<br>
> people from different states to join as members. Members elect the<br>
> leadership team of a cooperative for a specific term and there will be<br>
> regular elections to elect the leadership team giving members<br>
> democratic control over the cooperative.<br>
> <br>
> Every member will have one vote irrespective of the number of shares<br>
> they hold in the cooperative, making it impossible for big companies to<br>
> aquire the cooperative and take control of decisions. Acquisition by<br>
> big companies is an issue as it can compromise the service: as an<br>
> example, WhatsApp was an independent company, but it was eventually<br>
> bought up by Facebook, which compromised the service in may ways, such<br>
> as by weakening its privacy policy over the years.<br>
> <br>
> Next steps<br>
> For this project to be successful, we need more people to join as<br>
> members of the Multi State Cooperative Society. By law, we need at<br>
> least 50 members each from two Indian states before we can do the<br>
> registration.<br>
> <br>
> At the moment, we have 50+ members from Kerala, 26 members from<br>
> Maharashtra, and a few from various other states. Details are at<br>
> <a href="https://prav.app/become-a-member" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://prav.app/become-a-member</a> <<a href="https://prav.app/become-a-member" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://prav.app/become-a-member</a>> 2.<br>
> <br>
> By registering as a member of the Prav Multi State Cooperative Society,<br>
> you can help us with your experience, knowledge and the amount that you<br>
> give for buying shares will help us in funding for the app and running<br>
> the service. Plus, your membership will help us cover the legal<br>
> requirements for becoming a cooperative society.<br>
> <br>
> In case, we fail to reach 50 members from a second state by June 15<br>
> this year, we plan to register as a cooperative in Kerala. This is an<br>
> intermediate measure: we will still work to meet the necessary<br>
> requirements in other states, and once that’s done, we will register<br>
> as a Multi State Cooperative Society as originally planned.<br>
> <br>
> How you can help<br>
> If we don’t get enough members by June 15th 2023, we will have to go<br>
> through a two-step process to get members. To prevent this, we’re<br>
> trying to onboard members as soon as possible—and we need your help!<br>
> <br>
> You can register as a member and spread the word to your friends to<br>
> register as well, by visiting <a href="https://prav.app/become-a-member/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://prav.app/become-a-member/</a><br>
> <<a href="https://prav.app/become-a-member/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://prav.app/become-a-member/</a>><br>
> <br>
> Read more<br>
> <a href="https://azadmaidan.in/t/prav-app-reclaiming-choice-of-service-providers/83" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://azadmaidan.in/t/prav-app-reclaiming-choice-of-service-providers/83</a> <<a href="https://azadmaidan.in/t/prav-app-reclaiming-choice-of-service-providers/83" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://azadmaidan.in/t/prav-app-reclaiming-choice-of-service-providers/83</a>><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> Thank You<br>
> <br>
> Yogesh Powar<br>
> <a href="https://yogeshpowar.github.io/blog/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://yogeshpowar.github.io/blog/</a> <<a href="https://yogeshpowar.github.io/blog/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://yogeshpowar.github.io/blog/</a>><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Thank You<br><br>Yogesh Powar<br><a href="https://yogeshpowar.github.io/blog/" target="_blank">https://yogeshpowar.github.io/blog/</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div>