[PLUG] Prav Messaging App project needs your support
Praveen Arimbrathodiyil
praveen at onenetbeyond.org
Fri Apr 14 12:22:21 IST 2023
On 14/04/23 9:37 am, Yogesh Powar wrote:
> Hi Praveen,
>
> Great news about multi-state cooperative.
>
> I have a couple of questions. I could have sent you a direct message,
> but similar questions might be relevant to others on the list.
>
> Is money (a share price of 1000) the only criterion to become a member?
Every member has to abide by https://prav.app/coc and we are drafting
the byelaws for the coop currently, they will have to follow the byelaws
as well. Once we register, the new members will have to be approved by
the elected board.
> Have you explored Matrix (such as element.io <http://element.io> over
> XMPP) at all?
Yes.
Philosophically both matrix and XMPP are equivalent due to federation
and interoperability. Due to some design choices, we prefer xmpp over
matrix (semi-anonymous public groups as we want to use phone number as
id, lighter groups due to groups on single servers though that loses
some redundancy, etc).
See more such questions at https://prav.app/faq/
Matrix costs more in terms of system resources and effort to manage (we
have experience of running poddery.com and diasp.in which has both
matrix and xmpp). These extra costs do offer some benefits like
redundancy of messages, but we feel that may not be required for a
general messaging system. Though organizations that can afford to pay
more may still find Matrix better.
Messages are stored on all participating servers in matrix, and they are
stored forever by default, in contrast, xmpp groups are hosted on a
single server and by default messages are deleted after some time (this
can be configured by the admin). This also means matrix servers have to
continuously merge the state and history across all participating
servers (this can be thought of like a git repo being forked and merged
all the time) and this takes a lot of cpu and ram.
Matrix do have better client apps compared to xmpp right now, but we
feel this can be improved over time and the rough edges to xmpp clients
can be fixed, especially since there is a lot of people coming back to
xmpp. We also hope to invest in fixing some of these missing features in
xmpp.
> Thanks
> Yogesh
>
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 6:39 PM Pirate Praveen via plug-mail
> <plug-mail at plug.org.in <mailto:plug-mail at plug.org.in>> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> We specifically need your help to register a multi state cooperative
> society, which needs 50 members each from two states and we have 50+
> from Kerala and 26 from Maharashtra. If some of you joins and helps
> find some more members we can register this soon.
> Read more below
> Unpopular policies
> In January 2021, popular messaging app WhatsApp changed their privacy
> policy to combine all the data it gets with Facebook, giving users only
> two choices: accept the new privacy policy, or leave WhatsApp
> altogether.
>
> In a world where using WhatsApp has become a norm, that wasn’t really
> a choice.
>
> There were many users who did not like this new privacy policy. They
> tried to leave WhatsApp for other messaging apps, like Telegram and
> Signal. A sizable amount of users disagreed with the push by WhatsApp,
> but leaving a popular app like WhatsApp comes with its own
> costs—losing touch with contacts on WhatsApp. That meant, unless they
> were willing to be cut out from a lot of their contacts, people had to
> still leave one foot in the WhatsApp door.
>
> How different the situation is with phone numbers! If you had similar
> disagreements with a phone company A, you could have easily switch to
> any other phone company B and still be able to talk to other contacts
> by calls and SMS. Your contacts need not switch to company B to
> communicate with you. (In fact, the reason phone companies don’t make
> decisions like this is because they know customers will immediately
> leave them for a better provider. The ability for users to leave keeps
> phone companies under control).
>
> A solution: XMPP
> Imagine if all messaging apps were like phone and email, where users of
> any app can contact with users of other apps. In the above example,
> people would have a real choice to leave WhatsApp and just use any
> other service.
>
> This is exactly what we need.
>
> XMPP is a protocol that lets this happen. For the uninitiated, you can
> think of XMPP as a superpowered SMS, which works over the Internet and
> allows modern features like calls and image-sharing. It’s not a
> single company like WhatsApp but a standard that different companies
> can provide for.
>
> Messaging apps and services that that use XMPP can talk to each other.
> Examples of such apps are: Blabber, Snikket, Siskin, and more (think of
> these like Google SMS, Samsung SMS, Silence, and any other SMS app).
> Examples of XMPP service providers include disroot.org
> <http://disroot.org>, poddery.com <http://poddery.com>,
> monocles.de <http://monocles.de>, and a whole bunch more (think of
> these as different
> service providers, like BSNL, Vi, or Airtel).
>
> To drive home the point: any user registered on any XMPP service can
> talk to other users of any other XMPP service. (disroot.org
> <http://disroot.org> users and
> poddery.com <http://poddery.com> users can send each other messages,
> just like BSNL users
> can exchange SMSes and calls with people on Airtel). This gives users
> choice of service providers: a single company does not control
> everything, and we won’t be forced to accept arbitrary terms by
> services like WhatsApp to be in touch with others.
>
> Ease of adoption
> Unfortunately, the current onboarding process on most XMPP services is
> not user friendly at all compared to WhatsApp. This issue, combined
> with the lack of awareness about XMPP services among common people, has
> made mass adoption difficult.
>
> Things don’t have to be this way, and Quicksy is a leading example of
> this. Like WhatsApp, Quicksy allows users to register in a few taps by
> entering their phone number and receiving an OTP. But because it’s an
> XMPP service, Quicksy users can talk to users on other XMPP services.
>
> We are developing the Prav app to complement Quicksy by providing a
> compatible app (Prav users can talk with Quicksy users) and offering
> more choice to users. People can easily sign up for Prav in the same
> way they do for Quicksy, but now they have more than one alternative to
> choose from. Before, the choice only existed for people willing to
> figure out the complex setup process on other XMPP providers; with Prav
> they now have another easy-to-set-up alternative.
>
> Respects users’ freedom
> Our app is ‘free software’, which means users get freedom to run,
> study, modify, share and share the modified versions. When we say
> ‘free’, we mean ‘freedom’ and not ‘free-of-cost’. To avoid
> ambiguity of the word ‘free’, we also call it swatantra software.
> Examples of free software are VLC Media Player, Firefox, Debian,
> Quicksy, Prav etc. You can learn more about Free Software and why it is
> important here 1.
>
> This means that the original source code behind a swatantra app is
> freely available for anyone to inspect; people can conduct independent
> security audits instead of having to trust a company’s word about
> what data they are or are not collecting. Such an auditing can also
> verify whether the app sends messages in end-to-end encrypted form or
> not.
>
> In contrast, WhatsApp does not provide source code for their app and we
> can never verify independently whether the app encrypts messages as
> they claim.
>
> Running as a cooperative
> Choice aside, Quicksy is run by a single person, which has its own
> drawbacks—most significantly, having a single point of failure if
> something goes wrong. We want to offer Prav as a cooperative, adding
> more resilience by managing the service as a group, having a democratic
> decision making structure.
>
> In India, cooperative societies can be registered under state
> cooperative laws or under central laws. Only people from the same state
> can become members if we register under any state cooperative laws. So,
> we prefer registering as a Multi State Cooperative Society to allow
> people from different states to join as members. Members elect the
> leadership team of a cooperative for a specific term and there will be
> regular elections to elect the leadership team giving members
> democratic control over the cooperative.
>
> Every member will have one vote irrespective of the number of shares
> they hold in the cooperative, making it impossible for big companies to
> aquire the cooperative and take control of decisions. Acquisition by
> big companies is an issue as it can compromise the service: as an
> example, WhatsApp was an independent company, but it was eventually
> bought up by Facebook, which compromised the service in may ways, such
> as by weakening its privacy policy over the years.
>
> Next steps
> For this project to be successful, we need more people to join as
> members of the Multi State Cooperative Society. By law, we need at
> least 50 members each from two Indian states before we can do the
> registration.
>
> At the moment, we have 50+ members from Kerala, 26 members from
> Maharashtra, and a few from various other states. Details are at
> https://prav.app/become-a-member <https://prav.app/become-a-member> 2.
>
> By registering as a member of the Prav Multi State Cooperative Society,
> you can help us with your experience, knowledge and the amount that you
> give for buying shares will help us in funding for the app and running
> the service. Plus, your membership will help us cover the legal
> requirements for becoming a cooperative society.
>
> In case, we fail to reach 50 members from a second state by June 15
> this year, we plan to register as a cooperative in Kerala. This is an
> intermediate measure: we will still work to meet the necessary
> requirements in other states, and once that’s done, we will register
> as a Multi State Cooperative Society as originally planned.
>
> How you can help
> If we don’t get enough members by June 15th 2023, we will have to go
> through a two-step process to get members. To prevent this, we’re
> trying to onboard members as soon as possible—and we need your help!
>
> You can register as a member and spread the word to your friends to
> register as well, by visiting https://prav.app/become-a-member/
> <https://prav.app/become-a-member/>
>
> Read more
> https://azadmaidan.in/t/prav-app-reclaiming-choice-of-service-providers/83 <https://azadmaidan.in/t/prav-app-reclaiming-choice-of-service-providers/83>
>
>
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>
>
>
> --
> Thank You
>
> Yogesh Powar
> https://yogeshpowar.github.io/blog/ <https://yogeshpowar.github.io/blog/>
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