[PLUG] Prav Messaging App project needs your support
Yogesh Powar
yogesh.powar at gmail.com
Fri Apr 14 18:16:18 IST 2023
Hi Praveen,
Thanks for the prompt reply.
On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 12:22 PM Praveen Arimbrathodiyil <
praveen at onenetbeyond.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 14/04/23 9:37 am, Yogesh Powar wrote:
> > Hi Praveen,
> >
> > Great news about multi-state cooperative.
> >
> > I have a couple of questions. I could have sent you a direct message,
> > but similar questions might be relevant to others on the list.
> >
> > Is money (a share price of 1000) the only criterion to become a member?
>
> Every member has to abide by https://prav.app/coc and we are drafting
> the byelaws for the coop currently, they will have to follow the byelaws
> as well. Once we register, the new members will have to be approved by
> the elected board.
>
Ok.
>
> > Have you explored Matrix (such as element.io <http://element.io> over
> > XMPP) at all?
>
> Yes.
>
> Philosophically both matrix and XMPP are equivalent due to federation
> and interoperability. Due to some design choices, we prefer xmpp over
> matrix (semi-anonymous public groups as we want to use phone number as
> id, lighter groups due to groups on single servers though that loses
> some redundancy, etc).
>
> See more such questions at https://prav.app/faq/
>
> Matrix costs more in terms of system resources and effort to manage (we
> have experience of running poddery.com and diasp.in which has both
> matrix and xmpp). These extra costs do offer some benefits like
> redundancy of messages, but we feel that may not be required for a
> general messaging system. Though organizations that can afford to pay
> more may still find Matrix better.
>
> Messages are stored on all participating servers in matrix, and they are
> stored forever by default, in contrast, xmpp groups are hosted on a
> single server and by default messages are deleted after some time (this
> can be configured by the admin). This also means matrix servers have to
> continuously merge the state and history across all participating
> servers (this can be thought of like a git repo being forked and merged
> all the time) and this takes a lot of cpu and ram.
>
> Matrix do have better client apps compared to xmpp right now, but we
> feel this can be improved over time and the rough edges to xmpp clients
> can be fixed, especially since there is a lot of people coming back to
> xmpp. We also hope to invest in fixing some of these missing features in
> xmpp.
>
Good to know.
Thanks
Yogesh
>
> > Thanks
> > Yogesh
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 6:39 PM Pirate Praveen via plug-mail
> > <plug-mail at plug.org.in <mailto:plug-mail at plug.org.in>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > We specifically need your help to register a multi state cooperative
> > society, which needs 50 members each from two states and we have 50+
> > from Kerala and 26 from Maharashtra. If some of you joins and helps
> > find some more members we can register this soon.
> > Read more below
> > Unpopular policies
> > In January 2021, popular messaging app WhatsApp changed their privacy
> > policy to combine all the data it gets with Facebook, giving users
> only
> > two choices: accept the new privacy policy, or leave WhatsApp
> > altogether.
> >
> > In a world where using WhatsApp has become a norm, that wasn’t really
> > a choice.
> >
> > There were many users who did not like this new privacy policy. They
> > tried to leave WhatsApp for other messaging apps, like Telegram and
> > Signal. A sizable amount of users disagreed with the push by
> WhatsApp,
> > but leaving a popular app like WhatsApp comes with its own
> > costs—losing touch with contacts on WhatsApp. That meant, unless they
> > were willing to be cut out from a lot of their contacts, people had
> to
> > still leave one foot in the WhatsApp door.
> >
> > How different the situation is with phone numbers! If you had similar
> > disagreements with a phone company A, you could have easily switch to
> > any other phone company B and still be able to talk to other contacts
> > by calls and SMS. Your contacts need not switch to company B to
> > communicate with you. (In fact, the reason phone companies don’t make
> > decisions like this is because they know customers will immediately
> > leave them for a better provider. The ability for users to leave
> keeps
> > phone companies under control).
> >
> > A solution: XMPP
> > Imagine if all messaging apps were like phone and email, where users
> of
> > any app can contact with users of other apps. In the above example,
> > people would have a real choice to leave WhatsApp and just use any
> > other service.
> >
> > This is exactly what we need.
> >
> > XMPP is a protocol that lets this happen. For the uninitiated, you
> can
> > think of XMPP as a superpowered SMS, which works over the Internet
> and
> > allows modern features like calls and image-sharing. It’s not a
> > single company like WhatsApp but a standard that different companies
> > can provide for.
> >
> > Messaging apps and services that that use XMPP can talk to each
> other.
> > Examples of such apps are: Blabber, Snikket, Siskin, and more (think
> of
> > these like Google SMS, Samsung SMS, Silence, and any other SMS app).
> > Examples of XMPP service providers include disroot.org
> > <http://disroot.org>, poddery.com <http://poddery.com>,
> > monocles.de <http://monocles.de>, and a whole bunch more (think of
> > these as different
> > service providers, like BSNL, Vi, or Airtel).
> >
> > To drive home the point: any user registered on any XMPP service can
> > talk to other users of any other XMPP service. (disroot.org
> > <http://disroot.org> users and
> > poddery.com <http://poddery.com> users can send each other messages,
> > just like BSNL users
> > can exchange SMSes and calls with people on Airtel). This gives users
> > choice of service providers: a single company does not control
> > everything, and we won’t be forced to accept arbitrary terms by
> > services like WhatsApp to be in touch with others.
> >
> > Ease of adoption
> > Unfortunately, the current onboarding process on most XMPP services
> is
> > not user friendly at all compared to WhatsApp. This issue, combined
> > with the lack of awareness about XMPP services among common people,
> has
> > made mass adoption difficult.
> >
> > Things don’t have to be this way, and Quicksy is a leading example of
> > this. Like WhatsApp, Quicksy allows users to register in a few taps
> by
> > entering their phone number and receiving an OTP. But because it’s an
> > XMPP service, Quicksy users can talk to users on other XMPP services.
> >
> > We are developing the Prav app to complement Quicksy by providing a
> > compatible app (Prav users can talk with Quicksy users) and offering
> > more choice to users. People can easily sign up for Prav in the same
> > way they do for Quicksy, but now they have more than one alternative
> to
> > choose from. Before, the choice only existed for people willing to
> > figure out the complex setup process on other XMPP providers; with
> Prav
> > they now have another easy-to-set-up alternative.
> >
> > Respects users’ freedom
> > Our app is ‘free software’, which means users get freedom to run,
> > study, modify, share and share the modified versions. When we say
> > ‘free’, we mean ‘freedom’ and not ‘free-of-cost’. To avoid
> > ambiguity of the word ‘free’, we also call it swatantra software.
> > Examples of free software are VLC Media Player, Firefox, Debian,
> > Quicksy, Prav etc. You can learn more about Free Software and why it
> is
> > important here 1.
> >
> > This means that the original source code behind a swatantra app is
> > freely available for anyone to inspect; people can conduct
> independent
> > security audits instead of having to trust a company’s word about
> > what data they are or are not collecting. Such an auditing can also
> > verify whether the app sends messages in end-to-end encrypted form or
> > not.
> >
> > In contrast, WhatsApp does not provide source code for their app and
> we
> > can never verify independently whether the app encrypts messages as
> > they claim.
> >
> > Running as a cooperative
> > Choice aside, Quicksy is run by a single person, which has its own
> > drawbacks—most significantly, having a single point of failure if
> > something goes wrong. We want to offer Prav as a cooperative, adding
> > more resilience by managing the service as a group, having a
> democratic
> > decision making structure.
> >
> > In India, cooperative societies can be registered under state
> > cooperative laws or under central laws. Only people from the same
> state
> > can become members if we register under any state cooperative laws.
> So,
> > we prefer registering as a Multi State Cooperative Society to allow
> > people from different states to join as members. Members elect the
> > leadership team of a cooperative for a specific term and there will
> be
> > regular elections to elect the leadership team giving members
> > democratic control over the cooperative.
> >
> > Every member will have one vote irrespective of the number of shares
> > they hold in the cooperative, making it impossible for big companies
> to
> > aquire the cooperative and take control of decisions. Acquisition by
> > big companies is an issue as it can compromise the service: as an
> > example, WhatsApp was an independent company, but it was eventually
> > bought up by Facebook, which compromised the service in may ways,
> such
> > as by weakening its privacy policy over the years.
> >
> > Next steps
> > For this project to be successful, we need more people to join as
> > members of the Multi State Cooperative Society. By law, we need at
> > least 50 members each from two Indian states before we can do the
> > registration.
> >
> > At the moment, we have 50+ members from Kerala, 26 members from
> > Maharashtra, and a few from various other states. Details are at
> > https://prav.app/become-a-member <https://prav.app/become-a-member>
> 2.
> >
> > By registering as a member of the Prav Multi State Cooperative
> Society,
> > you can help us with your experience, knowledge and the amount that
> you
> > give for buying shares will help us in funding for the app and
> running
> > the service. Plus, your membership will help us cover the legal
> > requirements for becoming a cooperative society.
> >
> > In case, we fail to reach 50 members from a second state by June 15
> > this year, we plan to register as a cooperative in Kerala. This is an
> > intermediate measure: we will still work to meet the necessary
> > requirements in other states, and once that’s done, we will register
> > as a Multi State Cooperative Society as originally planned.
> >
> > How you can help
> > If we don’t get enough members by June 15th 2023, we will have to go
> > through a two-step process to get members. To prevent this, we’re
> > trying to onboard members as soon as possible—and we need your help!
> >
> > You can register as a member and spread the word to your friends to
> > register as well, by visiting https://prav.app/become-a-member/
> > <https://prav.app/become-a-member/>
> >
> > Read more
> >
> https://azadmaidan.in/t/prav-app-reclaiming-choice-of-service-providers/83
> <
> https://azadmaidan.in/t/prav-app-reclaiming-choice-of-service-providers/83
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > plug-mail mailing list
> > plug-mail at plug.org.in <mailto:plug-mail at plug.org.in>
> > http://list.plug.org.in/listinfo/plug-mail
> > <http://list.plug.org.in/listinfo/plug-mail>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thank You
> >
> > Yogesh Powar
> > https://yogeshpowar.github.io/blog/ <https://yogeshpowar.github.io/blog/
> >
>
--
Thank You
Yogesh Powar
https://yogeshpowar.github.io/blog/
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